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Animal Rights Vigil at OHSU President's Home

Around 40 people showed up in the cold last night to let OHSU president Peter Kohler's neighbors know that what he does for a living is not acceptable. Mr. Kohler himself was apparently not home, as he fled the area after learning that animal rights activists would be paying him a visit. A handfull of corporate spies from OHSU and some PDX police officers were left holding the bag.
Dozens of people arrived at Mr. Kohler's luxurious, taxpayer-financed mansion in the West Hills around 6:30pm. They brought candles, a banner, and the sincere belief that what Mr. Kohler does to other animals is wrong. They were met by taxpayer-funded OHSU security forces, who stood on the long, opulent stone stairway leading to the mansion. Throughout the evening, security forces trained large video cameras and spotlights on peaceful demonstrators while the demonstrators gathered into a circle and spoke against animal research. Even the children among us were meticulously videotaped.

IDA Outreach Coordinator Matt Rossell spoke briefly about the plight of primates at OHSU's "research" center, and others around the circle spoke out about their reasons for attending the vigil. Several people noted that this was the first time they had ever done anything like this, and that they were moved to come out after hearing about conditions at the OHSU Primate Center. The ceremony concluded with a few moments of silence to acknowledge the suffering of thousands of animals used like objects in the name of "science."

Some people covered their faces to prevent being identified by the security forces, while others did not. During the vigil, law enforcement officers were observed walking along the street recording license plate numbers of cars belonging to activists. A PDX police officer with the unlikely name of "Nice" showed up to speak to demonstrators in what amounted to a very cordial exchange. In a much-appreciated change from the usual tactics, Officer Nice was kind enough to refrain from pepper spraying any of the children who were present. I asked Officer Nice whether the security forces with the video cameras were actual law enforcement officers, and he said they are. They're OHSU security people, but are certified through the state of Oregon.

That was interesting to learn, because as Mike D pointed out, they were breaking Oregon law. Asked whether he was aware of the fact that they were illegally collecting information on the political and social views and associations of a group of people, Officer Nice said he wasn't sure he was familiar with the ordinance and didn't know if what they were doing was legal or not, but he thought it probably was. Mike D helpfully provided him with the exact ordinance so that he could refresh his memory. For those officers reading the site today, ORS 181.575 clearly states:

"181.575 Specific information not to be collected or maintained. No law enforcement agency, as defined in ORS 181.010, may collect or maintain information about the political, religious or social views, associations or activities of any individual, group, association, organization, corporation, business or partnership unless such information directly relates to an investigation of criminal activities, and there are reasonable grounds to suspect the subject of the information is or may be involved in criminal conduct. [1981 c.905 §8]"

Although the officers were vigilant in their efforts to illegally collect information on activists, as well as their efforts to prevent anyone from walking up the stairs in front of Mr. Kohler's home, they weren't so effective at actually protecting the residence from access. One intrepid and well-loved activist (who has been thoroughly documented by OHSU security forces) walked slowly up the long driveway in plain sight, candle in hand, all the way to the front door without attracting their notice. In an effort to reach the unreachable Mr. Kohler to discuss the issues at hand, he rang the doorbell. Alas, no one answered.

For more on this story 02.Nov.2003 14:12


Four journalists from Indymedia and at least one from Street Roots were the only press in attendance. If you'd like to hear more about this event, stay tuned to the Videos from the Resistance shows. An upcoming video is already in the works.

ORS 181.010 02.Nov.2003 14:28

Oregon Revised Statutes

According to ORS 181.010, "(8) "Law enforcement agency" means county sheriffs, municipal police departments, State Police, other police officers of this and other states and law enforcement agencies of the federal government."

As the OSHU corporate security forces are certified as law enforcement agents by the state of Oregon, it appears that they do, in fact, fall under the regulations as set forth in ORS 181.575. Anyone with a file at OHSU might consider civil action. For the record, any animal rights activist who has ever set foot on or near OHSU has such a file. Generally, they are several pages long and include personal information such as name, date of birth, address, cars licensed to the person, cars driven by the person, cars in which the person was seen riding, friends and acquaintances of the person, family members, personal habits, physical description, aliases, photographs, political afiliations, etc.

If I had such a file, I would be requesting a copy from the university. And if that were denied, I would be getting a good lawyer, perhaps someone from the ACLU or the National Lawyers guild. And if there was any information in there in violation of ORS 181.575, I would be seeking a large settlement. (Perhaps about what OHSU sought from the taxpayers of this city to build their laboratory.) And then I would use that large settlement to fund animal rights causes.

...but that's just me.

blood money 02.Nov.2003 16:22


According to today's Oregonian, Kohler's salary went from $270,000 in 1997 to $600,000 in 2002. This does not take into account the "perks" that come with the job. He earns his bread from suffering of both the animals used in experiments and from humans unable to pay for basic health care. SHAME!

Good Job 02.Nov.2003 21:00


Everyone who was present last night did a commendable job.Hats off to all of you.We must now keep the pressure on.Everyone who is involved,directly or indirectly,with OHSU should be considered a target for the next vigil.Yes,this should also include the security forces who protect the researchers,the administration and the facilities.No one should be immune,if you are employeed by OHSU then you are part of the problem.Writing letters can be helpful but letters can also be ignored.But how do you ignore 40 or more activists who show up at your home?A home vigil twice a month at different locations will let OHSU know we mean business and that we refuse to be ignored any longer.Start planning the next one now.Do not invite the corporate media as they generally do not show up anyway.It only serves to alert OHSU and the cops where you will be.Do as you did this time meet at the IDA office and carpool to the designated home.Together we can and will end the pain and suffering of these animals.

primate torture photo 02.Nov.2003 21:39



I second it: more demos and no corporate media 02.Nov.2003 21:52

was there

I would have liked to hear more noise at this home demo. This has been an effective tactic elsewhere, and I generally appreciated this event. However, songs and chanting would have improved it. Let the neighbors know next time!

I also took exception to Matt's comment that the media hadn't showed up, when four or more people from indymedia and someone from street roots was there. He covered well, though, when two of those people reminded him that the real media was already there. "Oh! Yeh...the corporate media I mean."

This is why indymedia is so important. Because without it, we don't have a voice. No one would have heard about this event without it. The people who were there and the primates in the labs only had a voice last night because indymedia and street roots were there.

An Open Invitation To All 03.Nov.2003 07:35

Dr. Peter Kohler

For any of you animal rights activists who wish to send me your comments,thoughts or suggestions please feel free to do so. Unfortunately, if you send them to OHSU, too often my staff opens and reads them without ever passing the letters onto me so I have no idea what your thoughts are. Also, depending on the nature of the letters, they are very likely to end up in your personal files that we maintain on all activists who disagree with our procedures and tactics. So may I suggest that you send them directly to my home so I can personally view them. You may send your letters of concern to: Dr. Peter Kohler
1863 SW Montgomery Drive
Portland, OR 97201
I hope to hear from you soon.
Peter Kohler, President of OHSU

And another thing 03.Nov.2003 08:52

Pete K

And, since I am far too important to actually read any mail that challenges me to live any differently than I do, please feel free to follow Mike D's example and come up to my house and actually ring the doorbell. Perhaps one day you will surprise me, and I will actually answer the door! You're welcome to do this. After all, it's YOUR multi-million dollar manor house. You paid for it with your taxes. Heh, why, I don't even pay rent or property taxes. Isn't that ironic? I make over $600,000 a year, and I don't even have to pay for my own house. While many of the people working for me make less than $20,000 a year, do more than I do, and have to pay their own bills. Suckers.

Anyway, I live at 1863 SE Montgomery Drive. Just come up Vista, a little way past the vista bridge, take a right on hmmmm...I think it's "Carter" st, but you can look it up on yahoo maps. Anyway, take that right, and my manor house is right there where this street meets Montgomery. Do check yahoo, though, I wouldn't want you to get lost.

Since I'm so difficult to reach, you might want to try odd hours. Never know when I might be around. Come on up, and talk to me about the immorality of what I do for a living.

to was there 03.Nov.2003 09:44


It is good that Indymedia people were there to film, but who sees the films except activists who already know about the terror?

Hey! Look! 03.Nov.2003 11:02

For those who might be interested....

The following job opportunities in the OHSU labs can be found at  http://www.ohsu.edu/hr/vtcare.htm.

You know...just in case someone might be interested.


IRC7182-17037MJ Comparative Medicine. Full Time. Monday-Friday 7:00am-3:30pm. Must have at least 6 months work related experience with animals. Knowledge and understanding of basic animal, husbandry, behavior, the spread and control of disease, sanitation processes, aseptic techniques and environmental changes. Good communications skills. Valid Oregon drivers license. Sufficient physical strength, agility, and mobility to move cages of varying sizes and weight. Responsible for the care and husbandry of laboratory animals. Changes cages, cleans animal rooms and facility. Follows detailed written procedures. Observes animals and keeps records. Understands and follows regulations and guidelines. Performs general housekeeping duties.APPLY ONLINE AT WWW.OHSUJOBS.COM

IRC7242-17038JD!!!NEW!!! Division of Animal Resources. Full Time. Wednesday-Sunday 7:30am-4:00pm. Requires 6 months experience caring for animals (e.g. watering, feeding, changing bedding, housing, checking animal's heath, etc). Must be able to communicate in oral and written formats; push and pull heavy wheeled equipment; possess manual dexterity to perform basic animal husbandry procedures; able to move unassisted through all animal care and use facilities; lift and carry objects up to 50 lbs. Must show on application or attach supplemental sheet showing at least 6 months experience in animal husbandry which can be from care of household pets, laboratory animals, farm animals, or 4-H animals. In a professional manner, provide daily animal husbandry (feed, clean & handling of laboratory animals) and research support tasks, following established procedures and training directives; assist in daily operations as assigned. APPLY ONLINE AT WWW.OHSUJOBS.COM

IRC7140-17424JD Division of Animal Resources/Located at our West Campus in Beaverton, Oregon. Full Time. Monday-Friday 7:30am-4:00pm. SPF/Rodent Equipment Sanitation. INTERNAL CANDIDATES ONLY. Requires six months experience caring for animals (i.e. watering, feeding, changing bedding, housing, checking animal's health, etc.). Must be able to communicate in oral and written formats; push and pull heavy wheeled equipment; possess manual dexterity to perform basic animal husbandry procedures; able to move unassisted through all animal care and use facilities; lift and carry objects weighing up to 50 pounds. Requires a valid driver's license. Must show on application or attach supplemental sheet showing at least 6 months experience in animal husbandry which can be from care of household pets, laboratory animals, farm animals, or 4-H animals. In a professional manner, provide daily animal husbandry (feed, clean and handling of laboratory animals) and research support tasks, following established procedures and training directives; assist in daily operations as assigned. APPLY ONLINE AT WWW.OHSUJOBS.COM


IRC6614-16375JD Division of Animal Resources. Monday-Sunday 7:30am-4:00pm various schedule. THIS IS A TEMPORARY ON-CALL POSITION. Requires 6 months of experience caring for animals (i.e. watering, feeding, changing bedding, housing, checking animal's health, etc.). As a on-the-job trained position, it is not required to have prior experience with laboratory animals; basic knowledge of the care of animals can be demonstrated through the care of pets, farm animals or 4-H animals. Must be able to communicate in oral and written formats; push and pull heavy wheeled equipment; possess manual dexterity to perform basic animal husbandry procedures; able to move unassisted through all animal care and use facilities; lift and carry objects weighing up to 50 pounds. Requires a valid driver's license. In a professional manner, provide daily animal husbandry (feed, clean & handling of laboratory animals) and research support task, following established procedures and training directives, assist in daily operations as assigned APPLY ONLINE AT WWW.OHSUJOBS.COM


IRC7121-16555JD!!NEW!!! Division of Animal Resources. Full Time. Monday-Friday 7:30am-4:00pm. THIS IS A TEMPORARY POSITION. Duration of assignment: approximately 3 months. Requires 6 months experience providing husbandry for animals (application form must document experience in animal husbandry). Experience in the health care of experimental animals in a research setting and/or as a veterinary technician or assistant preferred. Certification by the American Association of Laboratory Animal Science at the ALAT level or Certified Animal Health Technician (AHT) or equivalent combination of training and experience desired. Requires valid driver's license; must be able to communicate in English in oral and written formats; ability to use computer keyboard; ability to use proper techniques to perform standard clinical procedures and calculate medication doses; push and pull heavy wheeled equipment; possess manual dexterity to perform basic animal husbandry procedures; able to move unassisted through all animal care and use facilities; lift and carry objects weighing up to 50 lbs. and lift objects weighing approx. 42 lbs to shoulder height. Provide clinical health care and husbandry and provide research support for animals maintained at the ONPRC. Perform manual and technical tasks related to the care and clinical support of laboratory animals. APPLY ONLINE AT WWW.OHSUJOBS.COM


IRC7011-17052MJ Comparative Medicine. Full Time. Monday-Friday 7:30am-4:00pm. Requires 3 years of experience in the healthcare of experimental animals in a research setting and certification by the American Association for Laboratory Animal Science at the Laboratory Animal Technologist level (LATG), or Certified Veterinary/Animal Health Technician, or an equivalent combination of training or experience. Must have knowledge of, or willingness and ability to learn federal, state, and local regulations pertaining to laboratory animals i.e. USDA Animal Welfare Act and NIH "Guides for the Care of and Use of Laboratory Animals". Knowledge of animal health, husbandry, behavior, and the spread and control of disease, sanitation process, aseptic techniques. Skill in performing diagnostic testing, accurate record keeping, making careful observations and following oral and written instructions. Performs common veterinary diagnostic/treatment procedures, i.e. blood sampling, urine collection/analysis, fecal exam, skin scraping, wound cleaning, administration o f fluids via oral, subcutaneous, IV intradermal, intraperitoneal or intramuscular routes. Assists with necropsies. Observes/examines animals for signs of abnormal behavior, illness or injury. Maintains detailed manual and computer records, i.e. animal health, weights, procedures, meds administered. Provides Pre-surgical, intra-operative, and/or post-op care. Assists in training research personnel and department staff. Operates department vehicles and sterilization equipment. APPLY ONLINE AT WWW.OHSUJOBS.COM

I Saw Nothing 03.Nov.2003 11:56

An Unobserver

I did NOT see Mike D go up to Pete's house and I am certain NOBODY ELSE DID EITHER! We must be extremely careful what we post on this board or talk about amongst ourselves. We never know who is watching and listening and we certainly do not want to implicate anyone for something they may have or had not done. Do not help the opposition in gathering any information. Talk is cheap but it CAN hurt us and others.

Saw Nothing 03.Nov.2003 12:12

Pete K

Yes, talk is cheap and it's good to be cautious. However, it would probably be good to point out that going up to someone's house and ringing the doorbell is not illegal. Nope! So feel free to come on up and talk to me! That's 1863 SE Montgomery Dr.

Oh. And for the record, a person who didn't want to be seen legally ringing a doorbell would probably have avoided giving an interview on the subject. I happened to overhear a certain activist doing just that: Giving an interview to a video camera about how he walked up to my house and rang the bell in an effort to talk to me. So remember! Even though I might like to make it illegal for anyone to ever try to talk to me about anything other than more money for me, it's simply not illegal! Yes, that's right! So if you want to come and tell me what you think about animal rights, you're free to do so. Again, my house is at 1863 SW Montgomery Dr. in Portland.

What you can do: 03.Nov.2003 13:32

Matt Rossell  matt@idausa.org

What you can do:

Help plan the next candlelight vigil!
Please call In Defense of Animals at 503.249.9996 if you have any ideas.

ALSO polite letters and calls needed!

Dr. Peter Kohler, President
Oregon Health & Science University
Mail code L101
3181 SW Sam Jackson Park Rd.
Portland, OR 97239
President's office: 503.494.8252

Sample Letter:
You may want to put some of the following points in your own words and insist these monkeys be retired to sanctuaries.

Dear Dr. Kohler,

I am writing to urge you to release all the psychotic monkeys from Martha Neuringer's amino acid studies at the Oregon National Primate Research Center.

I am aware that Neuringer took these baby monkeys away from their mother at birth in order to feed them a diet deficient in certain amino acids. The devastating effects of this maternal deprivation has caused Rodney, Sapphire, Jonah and other monkeys from that experiment to go insane and display bizarre behaviors including biting and attacking their own bodies, causing serious injury. So acute was this self-destructive behavior, staff covered the injuries with duct tape in a desperate attempt that failed to keep the monkeys from further injury. These monkeys are clearly suffering psychologically and their continued use in your labs is unconscionably cruel. Further, these monkeys compromised mental function makes any data collected from them scientifically unreliable.

Please make the compassionate decision and retire these monkeys to sanctuaries. Ending their tremendous suffering could mark a new beginning of ethics at Oregon Health & Science University. Let me know at your earliest convenience how you intend to resolve this important issue.


In Addition, please copy your letter with a note to:

Senator Ryan Deckert
Capitol Phone: 503-986-1714
Capitol Address: 900 Court St. NE S-219, Salem Or 97301
Email Address:   sen.ryandeckert@state.or.us
Web page Address:   http://www.leg.state.or.us/deckert/

In your note you may want to:
Thank Senator Deckert for keeping OHSU's feet to the fire on the primate social housing issue.
and ask him to challenge OHSU to release these monkeys from his position on the OHSU Ethics Task Force.

Also, IDA would love a copy of your letters as well (by mail or email)!

503 249 9996
5428 NE 30th St. Portland OR 97211

Number Needed 03.Nov.2003 14:11

Polite Activist

Does anyone happen to have Mr. Kohler's home phone number? I dislike just dropping in on someone so would much prefer to call in advance to make sure he and his lovely wife, Dorothy, are home and up to having company.

A few lessons from OR? 03.Nov.2003 17:08

Rhinocratic Galaxy4Zel@aol.com

It seems as if some you folks have taken a few lessons from Operation Rescue.
Just hang out by doctors homes and intimidate them and their families, or stop women from going into a clinic that you oppose because you think there is murder going on.
How long will it be before you start to knock off the people you don't like, just like Operation Rescue
You have no interest in the people who will benefit from medical research that is derived from experiments.
You might put he life of mice on a par with a humans. For those who suffer from various genetic conditions or diseases we don't For us and our kids it gives a future, regardless of your sex, religion or race.
It is a shame that indymedia which one would think is an outlet for progressive thought is used by reactionary ideas such as those of animal rights.

To rhinocratic 03.Nov.2003 20:34


There is no more oppressed group in the world today than animals subjected the whims of human beings. Like slaves two hundred years ago, they suffer in silence while well meaning people fail to even recognize the immorality of it all. It is assumed now, as it was then, that just because we need to use them as if they were objects rather than beings, it must be our right to do so.

Two hundred years ago, an abolitionist who fought against slavery would have been chided for actually putting the life of a black person on par with that of a white person. Now, the same clueless voices speak out against "putting the life of mice on par with humans." God put us all, mice and humans, on this earth together. Our lives are equally meaningful to us all. The life of the mouse is as important to the mouse as your life is to you. It is only an illusion of convenience that convinces you otherwise.

Not a 'Whim' 07.Nov.2003 17:29

Rhinocratic Galaxy4Zel@aol.com

Well at least you don't disagree that there is not much difference between 'animal rights' activists and the fanatics of the anti abortionist Operation Rescue. Indeed the logic of your argument is against a woman's right to choose.
My cat and I had a jolly good laugh when you equate a mouse life to a human. I've tried to tell him not to go after mice or birds, as they are his equals. But he won't listen!
Well you might put a mouse life before your kids, but I sure as hell don't. It's hardly a human 'whim' to find a cure for diseases.
And let's not bring 'God' into this. This is about science and reality. There is no such thing as god; it is (hu)mans creation.
And as to equate animal rights to the struggle as against slavery, well this is just plain racist. Its the same argument as comparing animal experiments with Nazi experiments on Jews and others in the 1930's. Your logic is that its no worse experimenting on animals then on Jews and blacks, therefore Jews and blacks are equal to animals! Remember how Nazi propaganda films used to depict Jews as rats? But, it would seem, according to you they are!
I think it is outrageous that you should compare abolitionists to your own campaign. I will always be amongst the first to kick Nazis and racists off the streets
Animal experiments need to go on, and indeed will go on. And I don't mind defending workers at OHSU whose intention is to make a better life for people who suffer medical conditions.
Just one question, are you against research on flies? Or are they also equal to a mouse and a human? Yes, genetic research is indeed being carried out on flies.
And thanks to whomever for the job posting, I'm going there for a job!

same tired rhetoric 09.Nov.2003 13:49

suffering begets suffering

Rhinocratic, do you really want to save human lives? That's not a rhetorical question.

I ask because you seem to have been completely deluded into thinking that animal experimentation will someday save human lives while neglecting 2 important facts: 1) there is no historical precedent for animal experimentation leading to cures for diseases or even effective treatments and 2) due to the fact that animal experimentation is not representative of how medications will react on humans over 100,000 are killed every year by medication approved same from animal testing.

So, do you want to save human lives? Or do you want those 100,000 deaths on your hands by supporting the pharmaceutical industry in releasing dangerous medication and treatments to people? Your choice, but I suggest you give it some thought and do some reading about the medical advances held back due to their failure on animal tests but subsequent successes on human trial (polio vaccine) and those that would have been held up if they would have had to pass animal standards (aspirin, ibuprofen). And follow that up by reading about all the medications released as safe because of animal testing but later recalled due to effects on humans (which is about half of all medications or more these days).

Here's a good place to start educating yourself:  http://www.curedisease.com/FAQ.html.

What you'll find is that caring about humans and animals are not mutually exclusive; in fact they are one in the same. I hope you learn this before taking any actions that you will later regret.

to rhino 09.Nov.2003 14:21


You and your cat may have a "jolly good laugh" all you want. My suspicion, though, is that your cat isn't laughing quite as much as you think. You see, the cat believes it's life is worth at least as much as yours. Imagine.

As for your tiresome ravings about the injustice of comparing animal rights to abolition, I've heard it all before. It's easy to ride in self-righteously after the cause has been declared just. Slavery was outlawed more than a century ago, everyone agrees that concentration camps were evil, any sane person has now concluded that black people and jewish people are equal to white christian people. Your indignance on behalf of the groups you list is easy now. A century ago, even half a century ago, this wasn't so.

Why do I point this out? Because I wholeheartedly believe you would have been one of the people mindlessly arguing that your child's life is more valuable than the life of an anonymous subject of a medical experiment in a concentration camp. (Of course it is...to you. But not necessarily to the person in the concentration camp.) No, you would not have been among the first to kick Nazi's and racists off the streets. You are only one of the many to jump in after the battle is won. Stretch your mind now, around a new concept. One not so easy, not already decided by others before you.

Someday, hundreds of years from now, someone just like you will be admonishing others for some other slight, reminding us all that they would be among the first to kick out the kind of monster who would experiment on living animals. But for now, you're stuck in your lazy, mindless, self righteous stupor.

And yes, for the record, I am against the performance of cruel and unnecessary research on flies. Is that so difficult for you to understand? Yes, white people once found it just that difficult to imagine that anyone would consider the life of a black person as important as that of a white person.

Come on over! 12.Nov.2003 21:47

Pete K.

Come on, guys, it's lonely here up on the hill. Come visit me and tell me and my wife what you're thinking about! I insist!

Please educate me. My PhD was not in "Compassion." I feel a severe lack of that in my life. Please tell me how I can be more compassionate to the creatures I make suffer.

And to the fool who's going on about how the choice is between your kid and the animals you couldn't give a shit about: get a clue man. Even I know I'm allowing these experiments just for the money.

Dr. Peter Kohler
1863 SW Montgomery Drive
Portland, OR 97201

a final word or two 13.Nov.2003 17:36

Rhinocratic Galaxy4Zel @aol.com

For people who accuse me of rhetoric and raving, you seem to have a pretty deft hand at doing it.
For the record, I don't support all animal testing. Science like technology and industry is a reflection of capitalist society. So their bottom line is profit and money for the drug companies. There is a lot of waste particularly on the military.
But don't throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water.
I could list a number of things achieved through animal testing.
But I will only mention one because of space. And I have to admit I have a self interest here. I have a genetic disorder called Von Recklinghausen disease, otherwise know as Neurofibromatosis. Fifty percent of the time heredity, 50% a spontaneous mutation.
This is caused by a mutated gene on the 17 Chromosome. This was only located in 1990.. By 1992 the gene had been cloned. Now there are mouse models which have been developed which has led to treatments and therapies for the many different complications associated with this disorder. But much more still needs to be done. And the research has given many insights to those researching cancer and the growth of tumors.
You see we who live with this disorder don't have the luxury of sitting in Ivory Towers.We need a cure and thanks to those mice and the researchers who have developed them we are starting to see a future. And yes it probably would have been one of those diseases to put us on that list in Nazi Germany.
Do I want 100,00 deaths on my hand? Of course not. I have no control over those kind of things. I think you have to put the blame at the foot of those people who run society, who can find $87 billion to destroy a country and expand the US empire, but fail to fund schools, health care- including research- and jobs. Put the blame where it belongs- a stinking system who doesn't give a damn about ordinary working people.
Yes you might like to 'educate me' , but I have seen how you animal rights people like to educate when a few years back you harassed the the Makah Indians in Neah Bay Washington when they resumed their traditional whaling.
Now Catwoman,when you resort to insults I think it shows the bankruptcy of your argument. I don't think I used any abuse in my comments and I don't use them in life generally.
I could easily turn it around and say "I wholeheartedly believe that if you were living in Germany on November 9-10 1938 (Kristallnacht) you would have stayed in your sitting room stroking your cat while your Jewish next door neighbor was having her windows smashed out".
I really don't think that would be the case and I am sure you would have done something about it. And it's worth pointing out that the only country to completely ban animal experiments was Nazi Germany in the 30's
You make assertions about me, yet know nothing about me. Well I have the good fortune not to have been born or raised in this country. So as a non citizen I have to be careful of what I say. These can be awkward times for non citizens.
However in my country of origin back in the 70's fascism was getting to be a big problem. With many racist attacks out in the streets and on peoples homes. And they were confronted and kicked off the streets.
I don't do these things on behalf of people, but in solidarity and also an understanding that fascism is a threat to all working class people. And some of these Nazi type thugs also used to denounce the Jewish and Muslim ritual slaughter of animals as being cruel to animals.
I support a womans right to choose if she wants an abortion. You sidestepped the question. Do you believe a woman has a right to an abortion, or do you line up with Bush and his right wing gang of Christians who have started with banning late term abortions with the intent to outlaw it altogether. Do you support the right of scientists to do research work on embryos? Another thing the right wing have banned.
You see Catwoman, you are the one who does something on some other things behalf. For animals do not believe in animal rights. That's why they eat each other.
Non human animals don't have a concept of life. They can't think about what life means, or if their life is worth more or less than some other animals. If they did my cat wouldn't chase a bird.
I really am kind to animals and love nature. I don't go hunting like many guys in the factory I work at do, though it doesn't bother me too much. They say they do it because they eat the stuff they kill because the stuff you buy in shops is factory farmed and full of all kinds of chemicals.
And finally Catwoman, I don't think I've been rude to you in my comments,so please don't be rude to me,though polite manners in the US doesn't seem to be important
.Argue your case without assumptions. My boss at work told me someone didn't want to work with me because he ' doesn't like working with people with a foreign accent'
And to the last posting if you are going to post your address have the balls to post your own and make an argument with at least some substance. Arguments I will deal with but this is really just nonsense

To previous poster 14.Nov.2003 05:58


"Yes you might like to 'educate me' , but I have seen how you animal rights people..." Apparently we also sit in our ivory towers and don't understand important human problems. That sounds like labeling a whole group of people and slamming them to me.

I have a chronic, somewhat debilitating disease as well, and not only do I believe there are other and better ways to do the science than torturing animals, I don't believe that it's ethical to cause pain in nonhumans in order to try to treat humans. If you are sincerely interested in learning about the science of this issue, I would ask you to go to the CAAT website and read professional testimony and pick up some links so you can read about the questionability of animal-derived science.

Your assumption is that causing pain in animals in research labs is fine as long as YOU IMAGINE THAT it helps people. White people once viewed black people as expendible. The Germans viewed Jews that way. And someday those who view animals that way will be seen as equally backwards. What is your rationale to think that using animals in that way is o.k.? Why are you willing to sacrifice them?

you need help 15.Nov.2003 21:49


If I were Rhinos cat I would keep my eyes open for him as he would want to cut me open with athe kitchen knife.
And yes Rhino a fetus is a living being and has as much of a right to live as you or a mouse.
When are you crazy science people going to learn? Do you want to build another monster like Frankenstein? We have to stop these mad experiments. God does everything for a purpose.
And if you let him he could help you.

to rhino 16.Nov.2003 14:28

rhino's cat

You know, a lot of useful information was learned by experimenting on unwilling human subjects in Nazi concentration camps, too. Maybe even something about the disease you have. AGAIN, that doesn't make it right to continue to violate other's bodies to help you.

I support research into your disease. I just don't support the infliction of pain on others just to alleviate yours. Particularly not if there are other ways to find a cure, and there are.

Finally, Rhino, you are attempting to tangle this issue in with many others to avoid facing the truth: You don't have the right to use other beings' bodies for your own ends.

Someone remind me again 16.Nov.2003 14:50

Ironic Rhino

Why is you want even more Americans living even longer ? World not being consumed fast enough for you ? Rhinos not disappearing fast enough ?

PS There is zero altruism in animal research, they are just taxpayer funded R&D for the Pharm and Med corporations. Testing limits liability in courts when they get sued.. Try benefitting from their products if you are brown and/or poor (See: Africa, AIDS).

To "rhino's cat"... 17.Nov.2003 05:21


Unfortunately, rhino DOES have the legal right to violate other creatures' bodies for his/her own ends...and will continue to adamantly support that right until the world makes this atrocity stop. At which point, of course, the world will have changed enough so that people like rhino will profess that he could never imagine that people actually thought it was o.k. to torture sentient creatures for human "medical" experiments. The mind-set that says it's o.k. to physically and emotionally maim and torture others, to throw them in a cage for their entire lives and slice into their bodies at will--AS LONG AS THEY'RE NOT HUMAN--is frightening and shameful and disgusting. Yes, rhino, we should be educating you (although you've indicated clearly you won't listen anyway), but truly I'm disgusted at your attitude. Look in the mirror and figure out if you want to be someone who can be called compassionate to creatures who are more helpless than yourself. Pull up some pics of lab animals on the net and answer to them. You have a goddamn disease that makes you suffer? Well, those animals don't have a day of joy in their miserable lives. Consider yourself lucky.

Answers and questions 20.Nov.2003 16:55


I really appreciate your comments and thoughts.
It helps me to see where you are coming from.
I will address the questions you put or don't put to me.-
Celli-Yes I have to look in a mirror everyday and see the condition I have to live in as do many more like me around the world. I see the young girl who has already had three surgeries on her throat because she cant breathe.
You are disgusted with me. Well get in the line- behind my boss because I stick up for workers rights, the racist and homophobic bigots who think Hitler was right and the anti abortion fanatics.
This last crowd of people who also urge me to look at their web site with graphic pictures just like the ones you suggest I should see of animals. Yes I've seen a film of abortions and of animals being experimented on. But that doesn't stop me from believing that a woman has a right to choose, or that legitimate research with animals is worthwhile.
You make it sound as if researchers get some kick out of killing or hurting animals. These are honest people whose desire is to help people.
A question; If you had to take your child to the dentist to have a tooth drilled or pulled would you insist that the dentist didn't use any pain relief because animals had been used to test it's safety?
And I'm not sure if animals know what joy is. They just react to nature. How do you know what they are 'thinking'?
Yes I do want Americans or any other human living longer. I'm fully aware of the drug companies grab for profits and their control of it and denying it to developing countries. That is part of the capitalist system that we need to get rid of.
And Rita all I can say is that the only thing my cat sees in my hand is the cat food, which is made from animals. Is that wrong?
By the way Rita, Frankenstein was the person who created the monster, not the monster itself. And neither am I a monster regardless of what you think.
But one thing with Rita is that at least she says what you all believe. That is she is against abortion. Its not tangling the issues I just want you to come out and say if you believe in a womans right to have an abortion. YES or NO?
Animal research is compared to experiments on Jews by the Nazis. This is similar to the anti abortion argument that abortion is equivalent to the Genocide of 6 million Jews. Even to the point of listing abortion providers called the 'Nuremberg File.'
So they print the address just like the 'Animal Rights' organizations do to researchers.
It would seem to me to be with one aim, that is to intimidate and perhaps even further.
And even if you achieved your goal of banning all experiments, it would only drive it underground, just like banning abortion would. And just ask any woman who remembers the bad old days of illegal abortion what things were like.
Someone mentioned how animal research has not improved anything. And the anti abortionists also say RU486 research is a failure for treating tumors,and they want to ban it because one use is for abortions..
Yes there have been failures (I'm surprised you didn't mention Thalidomide), but that shows there is a need for more research. The drug companies just want to make their bucks, and that would be the case with any research.
Capitalist don't have any ones interests at heart except their own.
I know you will despise me even more, but those of us who need a cure and even those who don't believe in animal research.
And I'm sure my cat has also benefited from the research to keep him fit.
Now that makes him purr!

will you keep listening, or turn away? 20.Nov.2003 17:43

suffering begets suffering

"legitimate research with animals is worthwhile"

Well there isn't any legitimate research. Or do you have any *evidence* to suggest that there is? There have been *no* cures due to animal testing and, as I stated earlier, hundreds of thousands of people have been killed or hospitalized (not counting the millions more simply made sick) because of research that passed animal experimentation measures only to later be found harmful to humans. I ask again: do you really want to save human lives? Or does your desire for a cure and an indoctrination into faulty science and capitalistic myths blind you into supporting a system that kills people while claiming that it will one day save them?

Anyone that has looked into the eyes of an animal and sincerely attempted to communicate with it knows that they know joy and pain, freedom and enslavement. But please, do not take anyone here's word for it. Lock your cat up in a small cage giving it just enough food to survive for a few months. See how it reacts to that. See how you react to that.

"And even if you achieved your goal of banning all experiments, it would only drive it underground"

That's the first time I've heard someone make that argument, probably because it's laughable. What would be the incentive to do research underground? The only reason it's done now is for the money as has been acknowledged ("Capitalist don't have any ones interests at heart except their own"). Why do something illegal when better research techniques that are legal are available. To stay in line with your very, very strained analogies to abortion, that's like saying abortion procedures would be illegal but there would be a legal and non-harmful way to end pregnancy. Which do you think people would choose?

"but that shows there is a need for more research"

Yes, more research, but not on animals. If the research fails, and is not predictive, then their is no reason to kill animals. If you were faced with the decision of killing 100,000 people a year and millions of animals to develop a battery that would never run out of power (and benefit all humankind) would you do it? What if decade after decade passed with millions of animals and hundreds of thousands of people dying with no results, would you still do it then? The only thing that has been learned from animal experimentation is how to cure diseases in animals. We've spent billions of dollars and lives so that we can now cure cancer in rats. Too bad we hadn't spent that time and money on research that could actually help humans, maybe the cure would have already been found.

The bottom-line is that testing on animals is counter-productive if what you want to achieve is cures to diseases. It wastes, time, money, and lives with no results. If you really wanted to see a cure for your disease, or any other, you should support those who are trying to end the pointless experiments that only serve to prop up inhumane businesses. Animal experimentation is big business; research is big business. Bu you already knew that...

Since some people insist on trying to compare animal rights activists to anti-abortion activists I will point out some differences:

1) no person has been killed or harmed by animal rights activists; people have been killed and harmed by anti-abortion activists. One group values life; the other merely claims to value life.

2) an animal is a living, breathing organism capable of survival on its own; a fetus is a non-breathing organism that is not capable of survival on its own; many people feel we should focus on improving the quality of life for those who are living and breathing and suffering because of human imposed circumstances.

3) it is possible to be pro-choice and work toward the policies that reduce abortion. I will never not be pro-choice because I believe in an individual's (whether human or animal) autonomy but I do support emergency contraception, and contraception in general, as a means to reduce the number of abortions and the number of unwanted children.

4) staging a vigil outside someone's house is not the same thing as screaming at them or physically attacking them

5) animal experimentation is big business; there are vested corporate interests in keeping it going there are none for abortions (although one occasionally here's that argument from anti-abortionists).

But don't be fooled, the capitalists despise you more than I do. They despise you because you're sick, and because you're easily manipulated into supporting them. While I love you because I recognize that there is a spark inside of you that will one day realize that animal experimentation has pushed a cure away from you rather than toward you. You will read the many stories of failed cures that were deadly and recalled and the stories of those cures that were almost never put into use because of failed animal experiments. How many cures languish right now because they were not safe of animals? Do not forget that aspirin, tylenol, ibuprofen (motin, advil) could not pass today's animal testing. Nor did the polio vaccine which was delayed for some 30 years because of animal experimentation. What if the cure for human neurofibromatosis was discovered 30 years ago but failed animal experiments? What if the cure could have been found if researchers were not wasting their time and our money on animal testing?

If I had a vested interest (which I do, because like most people I know many people with debilitating medical disorders) I would consider these questions very carefully, and do the research to find support for my position.

When people drag out that idiotic statement 21.Nov.2003 02:30


that if you're against animal testing you should never use any product that was once tested on animals, I have to say I immediately think that person is a moron. The damage has been done. The animal research did nothing to advance that drug, but the drug still exists. It doesn't bring the animal back or alleviate their suffering if you use it or not now. That argument is so fucking idiotic--it has nothing to do with consistency or hypocrisy or morals. So do you not use any drug or procedure that was developed and tested on jews in concentration camps--because there are plenty of those that are commonly in use now. The jews are already dead and they already suffered. If you do or don't use it, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. However, if you wanted to make an argument about useful testing, it was certainly more effective to test on jews than on animals--that's why we got useful research from those studies: because they were human subjects. Also, I don't suddenly drop my morals because I or someone I care about is under stress. So, if I love my own kid more than any other kid in the world, do I get to donate your snot-nosed kid to research? Do I get to use another creature who isn't as precious to me to save those that I personally care about? What a selfish argument. Yeah, if I had your disease, I would be able to look in the mirror and deal with my life and the cards that I had been dealt, and not dump my compassion for innocent animals out in the trash. You don't morally get to trash other beings' lives because yours or someone's you love is a wreck. It's good that the poster above loves you, because I don't: I see you as a selfish, immoral, fucking whiner. It's not o.k. to hurt and make other creatures suffer just because you're suffering. The only thing that makes me glad about the fact that they're using animals to search for a cure for your disease is the fact that they'll never find one that way, and the joke is ultimately on you. Do some research and get a clue.

to rhino 22.Nov.2003 15:47

your cat

It's always a very convenient thing for people to believe that those whom they use and abuse don't really feel it. The cattle industry claims the calves don't really "feel" the pain inflicted on them by the branding iron, even though any idiot can see it for themselves. Animal researchers claim the animals they experiment upon can't feel it, even though they can hear their cries and see their pain. Nazis always claimed their victims weren't fully human and could not feel pain like the rest of us. General Schwartkopf actually stated, during the last Persian gulf war, "Those people, they're not like the rest of us."

This is a blind, ridiculous, and most UN-scientific answer. What is it that makes you believe other animals experience the world differently than you do? What is it that makes you think they "just react to nature," whereas you have some sort of more sophisticated response?

It's not science. No, it's convenience. All mammals and birds, and a good deal other animals, have the same brain structure to perceive joy and pain, to experience suffering, to think and feel. Any 1st year medical student could tell you that, if not blinded by the demands of our culture that we simply look the other way and make up convenient lies. Did you ever see "awakenings"? I think that was the name of the film, with Robert DeNiro playing a person who has been in a chronic, catatonic state since a childhood illness. Conventional belief at the time was that these people were human vegetables. They could not think or feel anymore. His doctor, inexplicably played by Robin Williams, comes to believe that DeNiro and others stricken with the same condition, might be aware in there after all -- that they might, in fact, be alive and conscious, but imprisoned within their bodies. He seeks advice from an expert in the field; He asks him, whether it might be possible that there is still someone in there after all. The "expert" answers no. They're gone. They can't think or feel. "How do you know?" Asks Williams. The "expert" replies, "Because...the alternative would be unthinkable."

In fact, this is a true story. And although the alternative might have been unthinkable, it was true. The people really were in there, after all. They were still conscious, they were still aware. Just like the animals in labs are still conscious and aware, even if that is "unthinkable" to you.

The point, Rhino, is that even if it's hard for you to face the fact that you're supporting untold suffering on millions upon millions of living beings confined to tiny cages in labs, that doesn't take away their pain. Yes, while you might want to deny it, they DO feel what is being done to them, and what is being denied them.

Rhinocratic, please educate yourself 03.Dec.2003 14:28


Rhino, cancer research, birth defects progress, aids, etc, have been HARMED and postponed by animal research, NOT advanced. There has never been any advance in cancer due to it , especially; there is too much money at stake for the 'research scientists' (millions in grants), and the pharmaceutical companies that peddle the poisonous, ineffective drugs currently on the market. They'd be out of business if the focus was instead where it should be, on PREVENTION. Cancer is caused mainly by eating animal fats and chemicals in food and environment. God forbid the pharmaceuticalgiants would admit they are no closer to a cure , then they've been for decades. There are quicker, more accurate, more effective and cheaper ways of doing research. Cell cultures, in vitro, super advanced computer models. They can't even duplicate the diseases in primates and other animals, so how the hell can they EVER find a cure?! Get educated. Visit WWW.NAVS.ORG for much more info. There are many doctors testifying to what a sad joke animal research is!
--- Here's a start: ---

Vivisection: Experimentation on Animals

Vivisection, the practice of experimenting on animals, began because of religious prohibitions against the dissection of human corpses. When religious leaders finally lifted these prohibitions, it was too late - vivisection was already entrenched in medical and educational institutions.

Estimates of the number of animals tortured and killed annually in U.S. laboratories diverge widely - from 17 to 70 million animals.(1) The Animal Welfare Act requires laboratories to report the number of animals used in experiments, but the Act does not cover mice, rats, and birds (used in some 80 to 90 percent of all experiments).(2) Because these animals are not covered by the Act, they remain uncounted and we can only guess at how many actually suffer and die each year.

The largest breeding company in the United States is Charles River Breeding Laboratories (CRBL) headquartered in Massachusetts and owned by Bausch and Lomb. It commands 40-50 percent of the market for mice, rats, guinea pigs, hamsters, gerbils, rhesus monkeys, imported primates, and miniature swine. (3)

Since mice and rats are not protected under Animal Welfare Act regulations, the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) does not require that commercial breeders of these rodents be registered or that the USDA's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) inspect such establishments. (4)

Dogs and cats are also used in experiments. They come from breeders like CRBL, some animal shelters and pounds, and organized "bunchers" who pick up strays, purchase litters from unsuspecting people who allow their companion animals to become pregnant, obtain animals from "Free to a Good Home" advertisements, or trap and steal the animals. Birds, frogs, pigs, sheep, cattle, and many naturally free-roaming animals (e.g., prairie dogs and owls) are also common victims of experimentation. At this writing, animals traditionally raised for food are covered by Animal Welfare Act regulations only minimally, and on a temporary basis, when used in, for example, heart transplant experiments; but they are not covered at all when used in agriculture studies. Unfortunately, vivisectors are using more and more animals whom they consider less "cute," because, although they know these animals suffer just as much, they believe people won't object as strenuously to the torture of a pig or a rat as they will to that of a dog or a rabbit.

For more information on animal testing in general, select here

For more information on the draize test (eye irritancy test) select here

For more information on the lethal dose 50 test, select here

For information on alternatives to animal testing, select here

Paying for Pain

The National Institutes of Health (NIH) in the United States is the world's largest funder of animal experiments. It dispenses seven billion tax dollars in grants annually, of which about $5 billion goes toward studies involving animals.(5) The Department of Defense spent about $180 million on experiments using 553,000 animals in 1993. Although this figure represents a 36% increase in the number of animals used over the past decade, the military offered no detailed rationale in its own reports or at Congressional hearings.(6) Examples of torturous taxpayer-funded experiments at military facilities include wound experiments, radiation experiments, studies on the effects of chemical warfare, and other deadly and maiming procedures.

Private institutions and companies also invest in the vivisection industry. Many household product and cosmetics companies still pump their products into animals' stomachs, rub them onto their shaved, abraded skin, squirt them into their eyes, and force them to inhale aerosol products. Charities, such as the American Cancer Society and the March of Dimes, use donations from private citizens to fund experiments on animals.

(Please see the links below and above for more information on these issues).

Agricultural experiments are carried out on cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens, and turkeys to find ways in which to make cows produce more milk, sheep produce more wool, and all animals produce more offspring and grow "meatier."

Bad Science

There are many reasons to oppose vivisection. For example, enormous physiological variations exist among rats, rabbits, dogs, pigs, and human beings. A 1989 study to determine the carcinogenicity of fluoride illustrated this fact. Approximately 520 rats and 520 mice were given daily doses of the mineral for two years. Not one mouse was adversely affected by the fluoride, but the rats experienced health problems including cancer of the mouth and bone. As test data cannot accurately be extrapolated from a mouse to a rat, it can't be argued that data can accurately be extrapolated from either species to a human.

In many cases, animal studies do not just hurt animals and waste money; they harm and kill people, too. The drugs thalidomide, Zomax, and DES were all tested on animals and judged safe but had devastating consequences for the humans who used them. A General Accounting Office report, released in May 1990, found that more than half of the prescription drugs approved by the Food and Drug Administration between 1976 and 1985 caused side effects that were serious enough to cause the drugs to be withdrawn from the market or relabeled. All of these drugs had been tested on animals.

Animal experimentation also misleads researchers in their studies. Dr. Albert Sabin, who developed the oral polio vaccine, cited in testimony at a congressional hearing this example of the dangers of animal-based research: "[p]aralytic polio could be dealt with only by preventing the irreversible destruction of the large number of motor nerve cells, and the work on prevention was delayed by an erroneous conception of the nature of the human disease based on misleading experimental models of the disease in monkeys." (7)

Healing Without Hurting

The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine reports that sophisticated non-animal research methods are more accurate, less expensive, and less time-consuming than traditional animal-based research methods. Patients waiting for helpful drugs and treatments could be spared years of suffering if companies and government agencies would implement the efficient alternatives to animal studies. Fewer accidental deaths caused by drugs and treatments would occur if stubborn bureaucrats and wealthy vivisectors would use the more accurate alternatives. And tax dollars would be better spent preventing human suffering in the first place through education programs and medical assistance programs for low-income individuals--helping the more than 30 million U.S. citizens who cannot afford health insurance--rather than making animals sick. Most killer diseases in this country (heart disease, cancer, and stroke) can be prevented by eating a low-fat, vegetarian diet, refraining from smoking and alcohol abuse, and exercising regularly. These simple lifestyle changes can also help prevent arthritis, adult-onset diabetes, ulcers, and a long list of other illnesses.

For more information on alternatives to animal testing, select here

It is not surprising that those who make money experimenting on animals or supplying vivisectors with cages, restraining devices, food for caged animals (like the Lab Chow made by Purina Mills), and tiny guillotines to destroy animals whose lives are no longer considered useful insist that nearly every medical advance has been made through the use of animals. Although every drug and procedure must now be tested on animals before hitting the market, this does not mean that animal studies are invaluable, irreplaceable, or even of minor importance or that alternative methods could not have been used.

Dr. Charles Mayo, founder of the Mayo Clinic, explains, "I abhor vivisection. It should at least be curbed. Better, it should be abolished. I know of no achievement through vivisection, no scientific discovery, that could not have been obtained without such barbarism and cruelty. The whole thing is evil." (8)

Dr. Edward Kass, of the Harvard Medical School, said in a speech he gave to the Infectious Disease Society of America: "[I]t was not medical research that had stamped out tuberculosis, diphtheria, pneumonia and puerperal sepsis; the primary credit for those monumental accomplishments must go to public health, sanitation and the general improvement in the standard of living brought about by industrialization."(9)

Changing the System

Write to your legislators today to express your concern for animals used in experiments. Urge them to do everything in their power to push researchers out of the Dark Ages where animals are still butchered in the name of science.

To find out how to contact those in the government, select here

Write to People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals for a free factsheet detailing the many humane alternatives to vivisection.

Additional Links

For a complete list of companies that DO test on animals, select here

For a complete list of companies that DO NOT test on animals, select here

For a fact sheet on charities and animal testing, select here

For a complete list of charities that DO test on animals, select here

For a complete list of charities that DO NOT test on animals, select here

For information on alternatives to animal testing, select here


Orlans, F. Barbara, "Data on Animal Experimentation in the United States: What They Do and Do Not Show," Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, 37, 2. Winter 1994.
Reddy, Kal, THETA Corporation, Research Animal Markets Report, No. 982, September 1989.
Soos, Troy, "Charles River Breeding Labs," The Animals' Agenda, Dec. 1986, p. 10.
Stoller, Kenneth, M.D., "Animal Testing: Why a Doctor Opposes It," The Orlando Sentinel, June 25, 1990.
Krizmanic, Judy, "Military Increases Animal Experiments," Vegetarian Times, August 1994.
Stoller, op. cit.
Quoted by William H. Hendrix, New York Daily News, Mar. 13, 1961.
Prouix, Lawrence, "A History of Progress," Washington Post, Feb. 21, 1995.

For any additional questions and or concerns,
please contact:  justin@geari.org

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