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So who are progessives going to support for 2008?...

I hear critisism of Dennis Kucinich, but nobody is offering an alternative.
I would respectfully request that another candidate be suggested if folks don't think Dennis is not the best choice.

It is not necessarily incumbent on any of to offer anyone, but if we don't choose and activity get behind that person who shares at least our view of stopping the war now (today), we will have let the voters choose only between Clinton or McCain or some other facsimile.

This is our country also and it takes time to lay the groundwork for any campaign to be effective.
here's a thought 23.Dec.2006 14:12

.

Why not put your time into, you know, doing things over the next 2 years instead of wasting your time arguing over electoral politics.

Just a thought...

you and me 23.Dec.2006 14:24

us

LOL, I agree. How about putting time, effort and FAITH into ourselves?? Instead of counting on someone who will ultimately let us down anyway.

We need a populist movement. Not a "movement" that waits for a go-ahead from a politician that'll never give us the go-ahead anyway.

Wake up you silly left-right paradigm thinkers! It's time for an alternative...I know, YOU AND ME!!

We need to pick up the scattered pieces of the anti-globalization movement, glue them back together and pick up where we left off on 9/10/01.

not an unimportant matter 23.Dec.2006 14:59

kucynic

The argument over Kucinich is an important one for exactly the reason posed by "us": Kucinich bleeds dry those of us who hope for a grass-roots-up, decentralized, democratic movement to oppose not just the occupation of Iraq, but the entire neoliberal establishment.

Kucinich would have my full support if he could convince me that he will refuse to support a pro-war, pro-neoliberal candidate, and that he will support impeachment efforts against all US war criminals. That he is ideologically opposed to these efforts seems clear.

To 'here's a thought' and 'you and me'... 23.Dec.2006 15:22

Pravda or Consequences

Great idea and what's your plan?

I mean besides just talking about it.

Where's the buy-in for voters who would vote for the status quo while tens of thousands of humans are dying?

I mean really, what the fuck are progressives doing besides bitching about our situation? I am not talking about organizing protests, I am talking about winning elections that will result in the removal of the murderous thugs that are ruining this country and destroying this planet.

Spontaneous Convention For The Terminally Disgruntled ? 23.Dec.2006 17:54

ms_xeno

Fine. I nominate Sam Smith, of the Progressive Review and Flotsam & Jetsam.

Now all I need are a few delegates, a biodiesel bus and a giant artery flowing with cash and we're all set.

Oh, and we'd have to persuade him to run.

Next !

you and me 23.Dec.2006 22:20

us

"I am not talking about organizing protests"

I am...but not simply protests. Sit-ins, the blockading of doorway entrances and major city intersections. Surrounding corporate media outlets in order to force our issues into the mainstream. In other words, direct action.


"I am talking about winning elections that will result in the removal of the murderous thugs that are ruining this country and destroying this planet."

There's a systemic contradiction in this entire statement. Exactly what elections do you propose would successfully oust the murderous thugs you speak of? Perhaps if you or I should run? We wouldn't make it very far due to our ideologies. Or, rather, are you suggesting the tired mantra of voting for a Democratic candidate who MIGHT be or PROBABLY ISN'T the lesser of 2 evils?

You (we) need to get some new material. Desperately. And soon. Time is running out. When so-called representatives are quietly passing legislation approving the renovation of already existing detention centers here in the U.S. for "undesireables" (though at first they'll claim for illegal immigrants and "potential terrorists") once Martial Law becomes a daily reality, I think it's time that We the People reclaim our right as actual citizens to take matters into our own hands. Afterall, what remains of the Constitution is now merely an illusion. A shadow of the past.

Unfortunately, the voting system is now the same.

Viva La what?

The Last Gasp Of The Empire's Subjects 24.Dec.2006 06:31

Adeste Fideles

The politics of "The Right Person." This is the key to solving all that is wrong with American society - if only that special someone would reveal him or herself, step up to the plate and declare, "I have arrived! Vote for me and I will change everything. I will lay the power brokers low. I will smite the haughty corporations. I will tame the military. I will put a chicken (or tofu - if you're a vegan) in every pot. And, I will make a paradise out of this swamp we now call the United States!"

I'm waiting and hoping. How about you?

an alternative 24.Dec.2006 12:29

max

step 1) Break completely from the Democratic party. They cannot be reformed, get over it.

step 2) construction of a labor party, or any political party that has as its basis a working class orientation (Greens need not apply).

'electoral politics' is only a problem when you are subservient to parties that were born out of the pockets of the rich.

After incredible revolutionary experience, people in Venezuela and Oaxaca have learned that not all political parties are the same, since the parties of the elite are constantly trying to kill those of the poor.

Lets learn from our brothers and sisters South of the border, instead of being stuck in the rut of 'anti-authoritarianism' or any ultra-left breed of politics that puts a break on mass organization and resistance.

Viva the Oaxaca commune!!

Viva the Bolivarian Revolution !!

Greens and Working Class politics 25.Dec.2006 23:33

GreenPartyMike

Max,

heyyyy that is not true. Some of us greens are deply imbeded in working class politics. We just do not see any other possibility in the Labour Party , CP or other Democratic Party tag along.

Same goes for the SWP for a different reason.

Give us a better organization and many of us would be there. The Greens are the only one to speak out about the corporate corruption of our democracy.

Speaking as a BLUE-GREEN

the Greens? 26.Dec.2006 11:21

Max

GreenPartyMike,

I don't doubt that 'some' of you Greens are deeply interested in working-class politics. But that is not the primary focus of your party; in fact, the history of the Green Party internationally is quite damning. Why should anyone in America care about a party that has consistently sold out to the imperialists everywhere that it has gained any power? The Greens have only the vaguest and abstract of principles (social justice, etc), giving those in power enough wiggle-room to do anything they damn well please -- isn't the Iraq War suppose to be a fight to defend democracy and 'justice'?

Once again, there are no independent working class political parties in the US, and if we dont want to follow the lesser evil into the next war, a party for the workers (as opposed to the owners) needs to be reconstructed.

sorry Max 26.Dec.2006 12:16

You and Me

Only one party should be constructed: the party of Direct Action.

Max, you are still feeding into the "leftwing-rightwing" lie that elections could potentially work in an honest way. You are behaving as an asset of the elite by your very words, whether you know it or not.

It's time for true Resistance. In the streets and public plazas. There is no longer an alternative. All alternatives have been robbed from us.

To the streets.

what are you doing? 26.Dec.2006 14:25

CaptainPlanet

"I mean really, what the fuck are progressives doing besides bitching about our situation?"

I'll tell you what I'm doing. I'm working to get as many people as possible to: get rid of their automobiles for bikes / walking; to reject the culture of consumerism and rely on their own resourcefulness, maybe making stuff they need from materials in the nearby environment or just doing without "stuff" that they never really needed in the first place; learning to amuse themselves and share in community with one another rather than passively consuming entertainment that they bought; having faith in their own ability to resolve conflict and not being dependent on police and other authorities; rejecting authority where it overextends its mandate...

Etcetera.

What the fuck are you doing besides bitching?

There is a ridiculously large and varied assortment of things people can do that won't get you arrested but will eventually make heaps of tangible improvement in the situation for humans on this rapidly deteriorating planet. Pick an interest and get started! You can participate in small or large ways. You could volunteer a day per month with an organization or you could have an all-consuming goal that you work on with every available second.

false dilemmas 26.Dec.2006 15:07

kucitizen

The 'kucynic' makes a false statement that Kucinich is "ideologically opposed to impeachment of US war criminals", Dennis isn't in favor of introducing articles of impeachment at this time. But that is hardly an "ideological" position that he has taken in support of U.S. war criminals! Impeachment is a political process - not a judicial one.

As for Dennis supporting "a pro-war pro-neoliberal candidate", Dennis is committed as a Democratic office holder to endorse whoever the Democrat presidential candidate may be. But - for example - that really did not amount to any kind of active campaigning in support of Kerry in 2004. What happens is that Dennis, like the rest of us, is stuck with two choices when the general election comes around. What Dennis DOES support is ending the current election system that perpetuates the two-party dilemma - he supports IRV.

As for "over the next 2 years . . wasting your time arguing over electoral politics" - what we (Kucinich supporters) are asking for is that you NOT waste your time, that you support the only realistic way to end the Iraq War before 2009 - namely, cutting off funding completely. That's the thrust of the Kucinich campaign right now.

It's a false dilemma that we can only build a populist direct-action movement OR "count on" or "wait for a go-ahead" from someone like Dennis. You know you can count on Dennis, based on his record in Congress (and, before that, as the anti-privatization mayor of Cleveland). But that doesn't mean that you are supposed to follow Dennis like some kind of 'fuhrer' or whatever. Dennis supports YOUR FREEDOM and my freedom - that doesn't mean that you are supposed to somehow follow him unthinkingly like a dumb soldier.

As for the anti-globalization movement, Dennis not only has a perfect record voting against the war, he has a perfect record voting against so-called "free-trade" and/or "fast-track" deals.

The only dilemma that is real is the choice between voting in the Green Party or voting in the Democratic primary. You can't switch around anymore, thanks to the new legislation about that. (Dennis supports IRV and other election/ballot reforms.)

Anyway, the new legislation means you have to choose - and that means there has to be some competition between Kucinich Democrats and Greens. But I think that's okay - we should all be competing to stir up non-activists to get active, including non-voters to register and vote.

May the best wings fly!