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How to Lose Your House at an Alcohol/Drug Recovery Meeting

Asset Forfeiture is so profitable, it would appear impossible to keep these people from spying on Alcohol and Drug Recovery meetings.
U.S. Police/Agents Can Seize and Forfeit Your House

For What You Say

At Alcohol/Drug Recovery Meetings

Should Congress pass laws that protect alcohol and drug recovery meetings from police spies and quasi-government-agents?

There is no precedent case law that will absolutely prevent what people say at Alcohol and Drug Recovery meetings from being used against them in a criminal or civil court.

Many drug and alcohol addicted persons who attend recovery meetings become dependent on group support to break their addiction. Commonly they share information about themselves with their recovery support group that relates to their illegal drug-use and/or alcohol problems. Consequently it is not surprising addicted alcoholics and drug-users believe "that" what they say in an Alcohol or Drug recovery group meeting is "confidential" and will not leave the room when the meeting is over. That is why alcohol and drug recovery-meetings are Bonanza of information for undercover police and quasi-government-agents that attend recovery meetings.

Quasi-government-agents are "civilian operatives" private contractors, that operate with state and/or federal government clearances to cause the arrest of people, gain information and cause the forfeiture of a person's' property believed involved in crime: Quasi-government agents work for themselves and may not follow the law. They are highly motivated by large "asset forfeiture commissions." Several thousand Quasi-government agents operate in the U.S. They can be paid up to 50% the value a home or other property they cause to be forfeited by the police/government. When the Federal Government uses "Civil Asset Forfeiture" to seize a home, sometimes the only "civil evidence" is the quasi-agent's testimony who is involved. Government is only required to show a "preponderance of evidence", little more than hearsay to forfeit your house. Effective in 2000, the federal five-year statute of limitations to civilly forfeit property starts from time police allege they learned a property became subject to forfeiture.

How to Lose Your House at an Alcohol/Drug Recovery Meeting:

Example: A "woman" while attending an alcohol recovery meeting believed talking about a personal problem that caused her to start drinking again would help her recovery. The woman told the recovery group she discovered her husband at home doing illegal-drugs. A female quasi-government-agent that trolls recovery meetings for information was sitting in the room. The woman's house is worth $300,000. The quasi-government-agent sees the woman's problem with her husband as a $300,000 opportunity to forfeit her house. The female-agent knows she can get up to half its value if she can prove by using a "low standard of evidence" the woman's home was involved with illegal-drugs, even a small amount of drugs.

Because the quasi-government-agent heard the "woman" at the alcohol recovery meeting state she was "drinking again," the agent knows its possible the "woman" was delusional or mistaken about her husband's illegal drugs at her house. The Quasi-government-agent not to lose her "huge forfeiture commission" along with the assisting police, may have to create a preponderance of civil hearsay evidence showing the woman's husband had illegal drugs at her property before police can seize her home. This is a forfeiture agent's dream: the woman by talking at an alcohol recovery meeting about what caused her drinking, made her home subject to civil forfeiture by police. Current Civil Asset Forfeiture Law presumes the woman's home is guilty because she admitted she knew her husband had illegal drugs at her property and she did not act to stop it.

Consequently if the Quasi-government-agent or those assisting the agent are corrupt and frame the woman's house with hearsay evidence or plant drugs to forfeit it, no one of course will believe it because the "woman" told her alcohol recovery group that her husband had illegal drugs at her home.

Many persons who attend alcohol/drug recovery meetings don't believe undercover police and government agents attend recovery meetings to glean information that can be used to arrest people and forfeit property. Considering the huge amount of cash police and Quasi-government-agents realize from setting up property for asset forfeiture, with little oversight, with such financial incentives it would appear impossible to keep these people from spying on Alcohol and Drug Recovery meetings.
this is disinfo 01.Jan.2007 04:32

member's eye view

ignore this disinfo...please. i know. i'm on the inside...this is simply bunk to instill paranoia and mistrust in 12 step recovery, which is an enormous threat to the established order as it is a true democracy, with no leaders, only trusted servants, no individual authorities, no top down hierarchy. oficials are elected but are trusted servants who have no individual authority.

the above is an attempt to infiltrate the mind and spirit of 12 step groups.

ultimately, big brother is about having him/it inside your head. this piece attempts exactly that.

there are so many first amendment issues involved with the above that the moneyed, professional members of AA would easily dismantle in any court.

i am sorry that anyone considering recovery may have read this disinfo posted here.

when it is stated before the start of every meeting, that the group is not allied with any outside institution, neither endorses nor opposes any causes,has no opinion on outside issues...when it is clearly stated before the start of every meeting that the common welfare comes first, when it is clearly stated the anonimity is the foundation of the group, then the individual has every reasonable expectation of privacy...

you would absolutely need a search warrant to obtain information and use it against an individual under these circumstances

this above posting is so far afield/

please people, be careful here. the disinfo agents are alway hard at work to undermine institutions that run contrary to the aims of the status quo.

please, if you doubt me, contact AA world services via the Internet...a google search should pop that right up. tell them about the above article

i'm going to forward it to them myself...

this is an attack, and not very cleverly disguised.

How to Lose Your House At an Alcohol/Drug Recovery Meeting 01.Jan.2007 19:11

Bill Bensen

Major media has not or will not address alcohol/drug recovery meetings being infiltrated by police and other agents seeking information to arrest people and seize their homes.

A good example of police trolling recovery meetings can be found in the case of the arrest of "Amy Lively." In the state of Washington, with approval of the police, agent(s) trolled recovery meetings with the intent of "targeting group participants." Amy Lively had no prior criminal record, nor was she suspected of any crime. After the police agent first made contact with Amy, he moved into her appartment. Subsequently the agent promised to marry her, but persisted for weeks that she break the law selling drugs to his undercover police supervisor. Amy Lively was arrested and sentenced to prison. The Washington State Supreme Court later overturned her conviction.

The Amy Lively case can be found by entering her name in most search engines.

dear "member's eye view" 03.Jan.2007 06:30

ne1

I sympathize with your wanting to protect a program you value and see as helpful to many people. However,
would you please acknowledge something?: In asset forfeiture proceedings, many of the constitutional rights of due process simply don't apply. The courts have ruled that you lose various rights in such proceedings, because the stakes are lower and don't include your life and liberty, but only your property or other entitlements.

Examples:

A person can be evicted from their publicly subsidized housing on hearsay evidence. No need to be confronted with any witnesses against them, no need for compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in their favor. No rights to legal counsel, etc, etc.

Also, a person can suffer unlimited loss of their worldly possessions if those possessions were deemed to have been used in furtherance of various drug crimes. Under RICO, this determination can be made without the benefit of a trial before public magistrate and jury of your peers.

Given all this, and the many notorious cases and precedents already established by these things, why should it surprise anyone if evidence gathered from a group therapy session were used against someone in an asset forfeiture proceeding? And why should it surprise us if no warrant needed to be obtained?

Unless organizers of such self help groups are actively diligent in protecting their members -- and, further, lobby militantly against any such actions by the government -- it would be highly imprudent of members to blindly trust their safety under these conditions.

How to Lose Your House at an Alcohol/Drug Recovery Meeting 13.Jan.2007 06:20

Bill Justin

Example: See the Supreme Court's entrapment case, Sherman v. United States:

An undercover agent posing as an addict first approached Sherman in a clinic treating addiction and later begged him for help in obtaining drugs while feigning symptoms of withdrawal. Sherman eventually relented, but the Court found insufficient evidence of predisposition as a matter of law because Sherman was reluctant to sell the drugs, gave in only because of concern for the agent's pain of withdrawal (rather than profit; he sold at cost), and the police found no narcotics in their subsequent search of his apartment.

How to Lose Your House at an Alcohol/Drug Recovery Meeting 18.Jan.2007 07:41

Allen Dickerson

There is wide-spread misconception
whether persons attending self-help group recovery meetings can prevent others from repeating statements he or she said when dealing with their addiction: Not understanding where applicable, that there is little or no confidentiality could prove embarrassing or legally devastating for a person attending a recovery meeting. Especially for persons who are mentally unstable and insist on dumping their life's story on group meeting participants. In many cases neither state nor federal laws protect statements made in self-help group meetings.

Physicians who refer patients to self-help groups should first fully explain the risks, the limitations of confidentiality and privilege. The only way to ensure confidentiality at all recovery meetings is for Congress to pass federal legislation that affects all states. There would have to be some exceptions, e.g., reporting certain types of past and on going "violent crimes" to protect the public from harm. Interestingly some jurisdictions have passed laws to shield communications made in group recovery sessions but unfortunately the protections may be only window dressing, for these laws may only prevent a "professional" at a group meeting, not group members from revealing and/or repeating what was said at a meeting.

A number of society's interests have taken precedence over confidentiality. People are required by laws to report to authorities, e.g., the USA Patriot Act and under state laws, even if they only suspect certain illegal behavior. Most common is the mandatory reporting of child abuse. This law can in many jurisdictions be enforced even when the knowledge was secured in a manner that would otherwise have been protected by confidentiality and/or privilege: Consequently, self-help participants at a group meeting might be prosecuted for not telling the designated individual or appropriate entity if a participant confesses to child abuse: "I did not need to know this" could have serious meaning for recovery group participants.